Balancing out the Birthsigns | Oblivion Wishlist

Hey Old Knight, I was experimenting with burden and drain strength/speed spells and I noticed that, at least on bandit npcs, when you drop their speed to zero or less, they just stop attacking you and sheath their weapons, walking away until the spell wears off, almost like a calm spell. Dunno if that happened in classic too

Would be fun if going over 100% fall damage reduction made falling heal you

> What's your star sign? I'm a Leo!

> "Piss off, I don't believe in that made-up nonsense!"

> This is for people born in Evening Star, so if you were born in December then you were born under the Thief.

"So true!!!"

You asked for some feedback, I do like hearing your opinions on how things should be different. You have a deep understanding of the game and so your insight on how it could be better is quite interesting.

How would you like a mod that buffs the damage of slower weapons, especially 2 handers?

For the Mage, an idea for something that is both a blessing and a curse - Greater Power: x% of damage you take is taken by your mana instead for y seconds.

Was that a Wilburger reference there at the end? 😂

The stars are telling me that old knight is making a good video!

Hope we get an update soon

Haven't started this video yet, but I was actually considering a mod doing just this.

I was redesigning MORROWIND birthsigns actually to give them advantages and penalties more comparable to how Apprentice and Atronach changed your gameplay in significant ways, though I don't know how to use the Oblivion creation kit and apply it to the remaster yet... Maybe when I have more time to learn it I'll touch up the Oblivion ones

I don't think it's crazy to suggest that if you're going to rebalance birth signs in a mod, that you might make some of them like the Lord a little bit weaker. I think there are plenty of players out there who would want something like that.

I've been working on rebalancing the birthsigns myself and would like to mod them into the game if I ever get xEdit to cooperate. I'd love some feedback on my current ideas - a lot of them were actually the exact same as in the video.


Apprentice: Fortify Magicka 100pts, Weakness to Magic 50% (same as Morrowind)

Atronach: Same as vanilla

Lady: Fortify Luck 20pts, Fortify Health 25pts, Fortify Fatigue 50pts

Lord: Same as Remastered but with Weakness to Fire 75% (should effectively be ~50% with the magic resist)

Lover: Fortify Personality 20pts, Resist Paralysis 100%, Lover's Kiss lesser power (Paralyze 3s on touch, Damage Fatigue 100pts on self, costs 40 magicka)

Mage: Fortify Magicka 30pts, Fortify Intelligence and Willpower 10pts (should still give +50 magicka until you hit 90 Intelligence)

Ritual: Fortify Magicka 25pts, Fortify Restoration 15pts, keeps Blessed Word

Serpent: Fortify Alchemy 15pts, Resist Poison 100%, Star Curse lesser power (Damage Health 2pts and Weakness to Poison 100% for 30s on target, costs 40 magicka)

Shadow: Fortify Illusion and Sneak 15pts, Moonshadow lesser power (Invisibility for 15s on self, costs 40 magicka)

Steed: Fortify Speed 20pts, Feather 100pts (would require an OBSE script to behave correctly)

Thief: Fortify Fatigue 100pts, Fortify Agility and Speed 10pts

Tower: Fortify Alteration and Security 15pts, Tower Key lesser power (Open Average lock on target, costs 40 magicka)

Warrior: Fortify Health 50pts, Fortify Strength and Endurance 10pts

One cool thing I can think of is "feats" for the birthsigns as players level up, getting a feat every 5th level (up until level 20, total of 4 feats similar to skills) to help make their birthsign choice more robust. For example, The Apprentice starts with 100 Magicka and 100% Weakness to Magic, but every fifth level a player can choose to either pick a perk that ups their resistance to Magic by 25% (giving a chance for the player to completely nullify the Weakness) or double down on the Magicka reserves by getting even more Magicka (50-100 points per choice, whichever seems more fair) which would help tell the story of The Apprentice becoming either more focused or more power hungry. And of course players could forgo their feats for the normal attribute buffs if they so choose (similar to DnD).

I can't shut up about this, but on the subject of overhauls I really, really want to see it possible to infuse unenchanted arrows with spells. Like just press the cast button while an arrow is nocked, the Magicka is used (spell cost adjusted so that a spell being Touch or Target doesn't make a difference) , and the effect of your currently active spell is infused into the arrow and will resolve when the arrow hits. The downsides aside from needing Magicka are that you can't use a spell whose skill requirement is greater than your Marksman (no Journeyman spells at Apprentice Marksman and so on), the arrow will be destroyed as if it were a real enchanted arrow, and if you're a Novice Marksman it'll chew up a lot of fatigue.

I'd also still like to see a video about how Marksman with enchanted arrows compares to melee and magic.

I picked a high elf Apprentice for my most recent character. It's uh... interesting. I can spam spells like no tomorrow but even Scamp fireballs are terrifying.

Why not give the apprentice a greater power that gives them 50 or 100% magic resistance for a minute. That way your normally vulnerable but in times of great need you can overcome that restriction

I like your suggestions here. Another good tweak for attribute buff signs could be making it the only way to exceed 100 and have points after 100 have a large impact

Also the downside for mage could be a hit on personality, speech or barter since people tend not to like arrogance

You'd be surprised. There are mods to make games harder, whether by buffing enemies/challenges or imposing handicaps on the player, which have thousands of downloads.
I've been planning a Birthsign/Doomstone mod, and could potentially make a version with your suggested changes; or most of them anyway- you're right about some of them being difficult/impossible to implement.
I already made a Sigil Stone mod, and thought I commented about it on your Sigil Stone video. But apparently it didn't stick. Guess I'll do it again.

Watched the whole thing. And I completely agree. Now let me load up the TES kit and get some of these changes in-game. The double poison apply is out of my comfort zone. Probably need lua for that. :)

I think a better change for apprentice would just be lessening the magic weakness. 50% weakness for 100 magicka seems fair and it combos with Breton for some good, if obviously signposted, synergy.

Khajiit could apply bleed with hand to hand. Might be a fun change.

"Babe it's been so long. How can I get you in the mood?"

"Show me the Oblivion spreadsheets."

In Morrowind, the Tower gave you a lesser power that let you have detect life but for keys and magic items. I think that was a really cool effect and I kinda miss it.

Race change vid!

Dude I love the way you organize your videos!

The Unstars have to be a nod to other planets no? Like Venus, Mars, Jupiter and Saturn are similarly visible and roam around the sky in previously mysterious ways.

Ive never really thought too much about the Birthsigns, the changes you suggested I think would add some spice for sure.

Aarogant mages learn mundane skills more slowly but maybe you could get xp by using scrolls

Edit: khajiit could have unique and exclusive birthsigns due to their variants

I think birthsigns having active abilities like Tower Key or Moonshadow or Serpent Spell is conceptually stupid. You'd basically have to restructure your whole society around the concept of some people being born on a certain month. 1/13th of the population being able to bypass a good majority of doorlocks, and the other 13th being able to paralyze you for 10 seconds would seem like it would require a lot of societal strife. I know Argonians treat their Shadows considetably differently from all other birthsigns, but in all other regards, birthsigns are not accounted for in worldbuilding.
I feel the same about certain racial abilities too. Dunmer summoning a random skeleton out of nowhere, or Imperials being able to brainwash you, and Cyrodiil somehow still functions like some sorta fantasy New York

having these changes would be awesome.

You should make a video showing how to find helmets from the loot pool of bandit npcs, I've seen lots of people complaining on reddit that they couldn't find any helmets, how they were going around with daedric armor and steel helmets

I'd settle just for sneak damage with bows not being bugged & difficulty setting sliders.

I think the birth signs should all have unique, wildly different modifiers that cannot be obtained elsewhere so each character feels very different

Warrior could have double weapon damage and uncapped skill modifiers for weapon skills (I'd include marskman so they have a ranged option) so they can do pure physical damage builds. Maybe 1.5x attack speed, 1.5x damage, .75x fatigue consumption instead, either way, make the melee especially good for these characters (could be couple with like 25-50% magic weakness or -50 magicka points as a downside or cap magic effectiveness to like 75%)

I like your Thief idea with reduced fall damage, they should also get a dodge or double jump and a sneak damage bonus coupled with a reduction to non sneak damage (and uncapped skill modifier for weapons)

Steed should have feather and a base movement speed bonus (like changing the hidden move speed height dingle from 1.5 to 1.7 or whatever achieves a 20-30% move speed increase) and a unique forward running or sprinting power attack that does big damage and moves you forward a lot

The Tower should get some built in damage reduction or percentage immunity to normal weapons to reinforce the tank build idea and they could get the old block mechanic where you dont stagger at 0 fatigue (or maybe just use half fatigue to block) and/or an innate ability to repair equipment to 125 durability (combining with armorer bonus to 150) and the lesser power to open locks should also scale with armorer (in that their ability to forge magical skeleton keys improves)

Your serpent lesser power idea could apply poison damage to your attacks (maybe not possible in the code) and/or they could make an extra potion/poison for free everytime they alchemy (combining with master alchemy to be 3 for 1 potions/poisons)

Mage good already, I agree on having at least one boring vanilla birth sign but keeping with my other ideas to all be interesting: halved charge use with staves and can learn spells from scrolls if they meet the skill requirement to cast it

I like your Lover idea, it should also get a Sandman style option to interact with sleeping NPCs to kill, poison, pickpocket with tiered options based on the Personality attribute

New Lord is already insane, but is ultimately a boring choice. Should have some sort of special mechanic instead like reduced personal damage output but innate rally/damage bonus for summons/followers/allies based on the Personality attribute. They can also hire NPCs from towns/guilds where they have high fame/infamy.

I like your Lady change, should have something else to feel special like reduced damage output but the ability to yield combat with enemies then a chance to command them like the Intimidator/Animal Whisperer perks from Fallout 4 (have it tiered based on Personality: 25 low intelligence humans/bandits, 50 animals, 75 beasts and non speaking daedra, 100 all enemies)

Atronach good and weird already, would be cool if the spell absorption was 75/100% while actively blocking a spell with a shield/staff to give the player a more reactive playstyle rather than just chaining spells and chugging potions while ignoring what the enemy is doing

I like your Apprentice idea but it could also have something that tweaks the way casting works (maybe increased casting speed?) and they should be able to learn magic from scrolls like the Mage above

I don't really want to play Oblivion more, have had my fill over the years

But I really hope Bethesda goes this direction for the next game

I want my build choices to make a meaningful difference to my playstyle and I don't want every character build to be able to do literally everything all the time

Fun and meaningful dialogue/quest choices based on your skill levels a la Fallout games would be great too

Unfortunately for the birthsigns, Bethesda is in a tough spot. Because they're permanent, they didn't want them to be too good or essential for certain playstyles, at least on normal. Part of the shift from Morrowind to Oblivion was probably a strong desire to make the game make more sense for newer players, so they were really keen to make sure birthsign wasn't the end all and be all. I think it says a lot for the game that any of them at all are halfway decent or useful in certain strategies, but I also of course agree most of them feel extremely middling. So it's no surprise in Skyrim they let you swap them out at will. This is another one of those things that I wish they'd been a little more on the Morrowind side of things, maybe like flat out a bonus to all physical damage for the Warrior, more lesser powers, Maybe fortify skills instead of fortify stats, just to get characters rolling a little faster, especially for skills like restoration, (the lady or maybe the ritual) Destruction, (the mage or apprentice) light armor/security/mercantile for thief, and block/heavy/armorer for warrior. I think the overall weakness of them is part of the reason people are drawn to the Atronach, they just intuit it's the one that changes the game the most. BTW that's also an Arena/Daggerfall thing they kept in all the way until Oblivion, so you gotta like that.

I don't get how they singled out the lord to be reworked but half of them are still useless lol.

Warrior sounds like a great change. It was nice for the early boost to endurance but now it's literally what, 4 levels worth of strength and endurance? It's kinda useless. Even in the OG it was kinda meh.

I think the shadow sign should give a unique interaction if you pick Argonian. Should be some special shadowscale buff and maybe give a small buff to tons of stealth skills. Maybe throw in additional damage done with dagger and bows or something

I already play a high elf with the apprentice without this theoretical mod on Expert, lol. I was streaming to my friends when I made the character and one of them egged me on to do it, it's very fun.

Wow born under the sign of the thief and wouldn’t you know it. I was a thief.

I have created a mod based off this video, it's called "TOK Birthsigns" on Nexusmods, mod number - oblivionremastered/mods/4030

Can not place the full link here. It is only for the birthsigns (not stones or races) and the following parts would take too much time or are otherwise seemingly impossible:

Thief - fall damage reduction - would take too much work for the time I have available to figure out if this is possible from construction kit (probably not). Implemented lesser power instead, 75 points of acrobatics may sound like a lot... well it is but it lets Thieves more easily jump to places other struggle too and also does reduce fall damage while active.

Serpent - double poison weapons & poison on fists - would take too much work for the time I have available and do not know if this can be implemented from construction kit.

Steed - Permanent 100 Feather - The game will not give more permanent feather than your total encumbrance, at the start of the game you are only carrying 4 encumbrance worth of items and thus you would only get 4 feather for the entire game. Implemented as lesser power instead for 300 seconds.

I appreciate content where you discuss your thoughts because it's informative and promotes discussion and brainstorming. It's a mode of engagement with Oblivion (a game that's almost 20 years old) that will always be fresh and new.

The Serpent should remove the "Are you sure you want to be a dum dum?" confirmation message when you use a poison on your weapon. Suddenly, an S tier birthsign.

Personally I don’t love the idea of making the apprentice and atronach have the same upsides with different downsides, but after doing an apprentice playthrough in the original, it definitely needs something to sweeten the pot for how difficult it makes some encounters.

I could see some kind of damage bonus to cast spells or an increase to magicka regen rate independent of attributes being decent for the “glass cannon” style it seems to target.

I'm not gonna lie...I want the old Lord sign back. Blood of the North was the best healing spell in the game.

Not until I got 100 Restoration did I not need it anymore...but this was over 40 hours into the game!

I really like a lot of your additions to the Birthsigns, they're buffs that are meaningful regardless of how far you are in the game. That being said; I think Attribute and Skill based buffs are mediocre due to level caps. They are good in the early game, but useless in the endgame. Someone who specs into being a Warrior won't be stronger than someone who specs into Stealth due to the level cap. That is my main dilemma when creating a Warrior character or any character for that matter; "what's the point in creating a warrior character when I will literally have the same stats as my Mage build in the endgame". My solution is to increase the cap based on what you spec into. If your build gives say +20 in Strength at the start of the game your max cap goes from 100 to 120 in the endgame. The same principle applies to Skills. This will encourage players to try more than one build beyond roleplaying purpose. For this to work however some Skills like Blade and Blunt need to scale past 100.

This will also encourage you to pick your Race, Birthsign and Class based on what you want your character to be rather than what's more optimal. Imagine picking a Khajiit with the Thief Birthsign and a Class that specs into Speed and Athletics. You will have a significantly higher base running Speed in the endgame than you would otherwise have if you hadn't picked this build. Alternatively you pick an Orc or Redguard to play a Warrior. You will have a far higher max cap on Skills that matter for a Warrior and you will actually feel the benefits of picking a Warrior build regardless of how far you are into the game. You might end up with a Strength and Endurance stat closer to 150 and a Blade stat of 125. Perhaps even have perks for 125 and 150 to even further bolster the potential power of Warriors. Maybe a stronger Bleed on Blade or being able to further enhance your gear to 150 instead of 125 durability with Armorer. They kinda need it considering how strong Magic is in this game.

Previously weakness to magic from The Apprentice sign allowed you to do some really cool self buffs if you added a negative effect to the spell. Apparently they removed this. Shame.