Did Tywin think Tyrion was guilty?

There’s no chance he thought he was guilty. He’s smart and figured it out before his next meal.

If anyone wants to read up on real life events very similar to this, look up what happened to the second Kamakura Shogun of Japan. He too was an unruly teenager with a new bride on the verge of breaking free from the control of the regency of his mother and maternal grandfather and who was also assassinated and replaced with his much more pliable younger brother. What happened to Goffrey and the second Shogun, one always reminds me of the other, though the real life incident was FAR more brutal and cold hearted.
Here's a TLDR: The teenage shogun was eager to leave his mother and grandfather's control to replace them with the family of his new wife, putting them into positions of power. So his mom and grandpa had him, his wife and their infant son all killed, and made his younger brother shogun. The family of the teenage shoguns wife was rightfully outraged by this, but not in the way you might think, not out of love for their murdered daughter and grandson, because they did indeed threaten war over the killings but what they wanted wasn't revenge but for the new young shogun to marry their other young daughter (so they were mad over losing marital connection to the Shogunate).

I think he deduced it, but chose to play it to his advantage

If Tywin did know of the plot and looked the other way, it would have been due to Joffrey's incompetence and disastrous temper. Tywin wasn't going to live forever and for the sake of his house's survival, a more intelligent and patient king like Tommin would have been an ideal replacement.

i would assume Tywin didnt care and rolled with it as it did suit all of his needs. would also be willing to assume that if under some magic truth spell thing and was asked if he really thought Tyrion did it he would say no

That whole Tysha thing... whatever happened there

Tywin didn't know anything. He didn't know who the cup bearer (Arya) was either. But he was ready to use circumstances to his advantage regardless.

I am inclined to agree with you. I imagine that Tywin was not completely sure. He was probably certain that Sansa was involved since she had disappeared and had more cause to hate Joffrey then anyone. But hey it worked out fine for him, Joffrey was a liability and he was no dead, a new pliable king was in place, and he got a perfect excuse to get rid of Tyrion.

Littlefinger understood Tywin he knew that he would be happy to see Tyrion take the fall.

Tywin was pragmatic. Joff had been testing and insulting Tywin, and he also knew that Joff would never be normal (especially with Cersei as his mother); so, I wouldn't be surprised at all if Tywin had a hand in the murder, allowing Tywin to rid himself of both Joff and Tyrion, and mold Tomen to be his perfect puppet. I would not be super surprised if that comes out e.g., that Tywin had plotted or had a hand in allowing the murder to take place. Then again, there's the whole family thing but we also know that Tywin is a hypocrite.

Getting rid of Joffrey and Tryion would be ideal for Tywin.

I think he'd prefer that Tyrion die at the wall instead of being executed but Tyrion calling for the trial by combat kind of ruined that.

Joffrey was going to be a major problem sooner or later and likely a threat to Tywin. It was only a mater of time. Whether Joffrey would try to have him secretly murdered or be bold enough to order him killed would have been interesting to see.

frankly, knowing Tywin and his mental gymnastics, he'd probably found some BS way to say that Tyrion was guilty of it, cause that is simply the level of hate he had for Tyrion. Logic be damned.

Agreed. He knows Tyrion is too smart to be that obvious.

A MOUNTAIN of evidence, eh?

speasking of 'did he care?' NO neither did martin. the man has admitted he's given up these are never gonig to be answered because the writer had said he won't do it. he isn't the next tolkien he's a case study in hubris. stop giving oxygen to his failed books

He knew and didn't care, imo. Like it was pointed out; neither Tywin or Tyrion thought the other was stupid.

"This is Robert" is hardly neutral

It is an interesting point that all three judges had a motive to kill Joffrey. Tyrion was a convenient scapegoat, whose conviction would upset no-one (bar Tyrion, that it).

If Tywin was in doubt then to what degree would he be interested in finding out who is willing and capable of murder at the heart of his power? At least as a piece of leverage?

This Game of Theones stuff is beneath you. George doesn't love you. Stick with Tolkien.

Commenting before watching my thought is that Tyrian's guilt was unimportant. Tywin staged it so that Tyrian would found guilty and sent to The Wall; be out of the way but alive. I do not believe he would have killed his son. Tyrian trashed that plan..

It wouldn't shock me that Tywin knew it was the Queen of Thorns. And that her and Tywin actually plotted it. Tywin may be all about the family, but he's also about complete control. And Joffrey was very erratic, and could easily have ordered Tywin arrested at any moment. You can't control a person like Joffrey.

I agree with all of that and I appreciate the fair weighing of motives, evidence and opportunities. Without realizing it I'd picked up on all of it during the screening because the storytelling was so good. I just knew that Tywin was aware of things at a deeper level. It's that kind of depth which made the series so compellingly good...until it wasn't. Sigh.

You should clarify whether you're going over the movies or the books so I know whether or not I care about the content. And I did just call an HBO series 'movies' and don't care to correct it, so you can guess which one I consider worth my time.

This isn’t the first time Tywin has been indifferent to his Kings Death or potential death. When Lord Darklyn threat to kill Areys if they didn’t lift the siege of Duskindale, Tywin nonchalantly said who cares? Rhaegar is here and he would make a better King. Tywin is willing to passively manipulate situations to ensure his obstacles are eliminated.

I think there a reasons why GRRM made Tywin and Lady Rohanne Webber related 😂

Looking for emotion in a sociopath is a waste of time.

Why not believe this was a plan wrought together by Tywin and Olenna? It benefits both, but clearly Tywin gets the most benefit long term.

Tywin didn’t know about Joffery’s poison because he wasn’t the target. Tyrion was the target of the poison. No point trying to poison Joffery through Tyrion’s piece of pie.

no

It was an opportunity and Tywin ran with it. As Littlefinger said in the TV show, chaos is a ladder.

I think in the show (which I know has no real bearing on the books) it's kinda implied Tywin may have actually been involved directly with Joffrey's death. There's a scene shortly before where he's having a friendly little chat with Olenna Tyrell, but we curiously don't get to see what that chat pertains to.

I'm pretty sure Tywin knows Tyrion didn't, because I'm pretty sure Tywin will turn out to be one of the people who planned the murder.

MOUNTAIN evidences agains him xX

Tywin strikes me as too pragmatic to care overmuch. He knew he could never truly know the truth of it all, and so immediately set about using it as a means to his own ends.

I like your conclusion, I think as well it deepens the “monster you think I am” speech that Tyrion makes during the trial

Tywin was too eager to get into Shae’s skirt to be thinking much of anything else.

Tywins thought rocess, pride he had balls, immidiate realisation he'd not be so stupid, instant understanding of which woman would use a woman's weapon.

Tywin knows Tyrion is exactly like him, except tywin is a psychopath.

Tyrion thinks his father despises him particularly, but in truth Tywin despises everyone and only repected Tyrion enough to be honest with him. Tywin sees an evil world and that evil is necessary to thrive in it.

Tywin wasn't upset tyrion killed his wife, tywin missed the carnal delights of their intimacy. Imho he blames her for the dwarfism, too, polluting his line.

Importand distinction between him and Ramsay or Joffery, is he is not a sadist as well. And Daenerys is a sadist but not seemingly a psychopath.

“Tywin knows Tyrion isn’t stupid…” Tell that to HBO-Tyrion.

You are right Tywin did not care

Tywin’s goal was the most politically advantageous for the Lannister‘s. Of course, he knew that Tyrion did not do it. Robert, you’ve done a great job explaining this in the video.

What Tywin did not know is that this was an attempt on Tyrion’s life not Joffrey’s. Read the chapter again. The poison is in the cream sauce, not the wine. Perhaps the Tyrell‘s had a plan to poison Joffrey, but he stumbled into the attempt on his uncle’s life first.

As someone who has only watched the show, it seemed to me that Tywin didn't think Tyrion was guilty, but he didn't help Tyrion because he saw this as his chance to finally get rid of him.

Hi Robert for a dyslexic person after watching the TV show these books seemed out of my reach, I then discovered the audio books and realised that with time I could actually become a part of this world and in fairly short space of time I managed to complete the set, but with my dyslexia also comes ADHD so my mind is prone to wonder, so while I had listen to all the books sometimes there were always bits missing, but with this channel added to the audio books I truly feel like I understand and belong so thank you Robert ❤

I think/believe that Tywin as much as he hated Tyrion also knew him the best They are after all reflections of one another. He knew what he was capable of, but more importantly how he reacted to things and how he lied

Tyrion was caught off guard, he pleaded his innocence (to Kevan, he acted in a way most unbecoming of a schemer. This leads me to believe that Tywin knew, even if he didn't want to think so, that Tyrion was innocent

But did it matter? The result was still that he had a dead boy king, an alliance to protect and a house he had to show off to (Martell). He did what any schemer would do, try to spin the whole façade in the best possible way.

If anything, Tywin may have been relieved by Joffrey's death. He may or may not have thought Tyrion really did it, but if he did then it was probably with tacit approval - both for removing an extremely dangerous pawn off the board, and for giving Tywin an excuse to have him out of sight once and for all without necessarily wasting his talent.

If Tywin knew Tyrion was innocent. then what about the real killer? Would Tywin have tried to (discreetly, I assume) suss them out? For all he knew, the killer could try again with Tommen.

I think he knew, but he wanted him to be found guilty because it was a way to finally be rid of him without looking bad, which he would do if he just abandoned his son.

I just gotta say, Robert, your voice is a delight. have you ever thought of doing an audiobook? I think you'd nail it

I think Tywin likely suspected the Tyrells were responsible for the poisoning, but decided that the alliance with them was too important to jeopardize over the death of a boy that Tywin saw at best as a liability. And if he could convince the rest of the Seven Kingdoms that it was Tyrion who was responsible, then he wouldn't look weak by being allied with a house who had just murdered his grandson

just one small detail, is tywin willing to let it go while someone killed a member of his family right under his nose. even though with tryion he gets what he wants

I like to think no-one poisoned Joffery and he just died of allergies