Cooled Cameras can HURT our images?! HOW?? EASY fixes!

Cuiv, excellent video as always! Do you think there is a "limit" on the focal length where shorter than the limit is ok, but longer is NG? Could it be calculated mathematically?

Wow what a nuance! I would never expect that, although I've never tried shooting at anything longer than 1040mm EFL. Of course the first thing I did after watching this was to grab my camera and see if I can feel any vibrations as you did. Happy to report that at least with my hands as the seismic sensor QHY268m felt absolutely still 😀 Thank you for this exciting story!

Wow Cuiv! Thanks to you, Richard and Buckeyestargazer for bringing this alarming news to us. I use a 2600MC Pro and i have certainly noticed elongated stars when using my 2350mm FL SCT (which I don’t see with my Esprit). I assumed this must be poor collimation, but maybe not! I am a bit cross with ZWO if you are right (I bet they love this video! 😂).

Hey Cuiv, once more you have unlocked Pandora’s Box for us! This is fan-tasic (sorry for the pun!) information. As you rightly point out, the very progressive folks at ZWO are most likely to be grateful for this exchange and will do something about their camera design to prevent the problem in the future. We all owe you!
Slightly off-topic, when you reported back your comments about ASIAir Plus, how did ZWO respond? Did they indicate to you that they were considering implementing some/all of your suggestions?

My ASI2600MC Pro has rubber donuts on the fan mounting screws. Did the version you tested have them or is this a recent addition. My camera was purchased about 3 months ago.

Very interesting. Next time thee are no clouds I will check this out.

I'm not sure that I would be as charitable to ZWO as you Cuiv. If fan vibration is indeed the cause, then this is a design flaw or QC issue that ZWO should acknowledge and fix FOC on request. It's not an 'oh well maybe they'll fix it in a future release and we can buy the camera again' type situation to my way of thinking. And it certainly should not be up to the end-user to modify their camera to fix a design flaw and invalidate their warranty in the process. It seems like a pretty basic fail to me that to a manufacturer should be obvious. As pointed out in the video, other manufacturers are aware of and have designed out this issue. The only way it would be acceptable would be if all ZWO cameras were rated up to a certain focal length, then as a consumer you would know that if you planned on doing long FL work, you would choose specific cameras rated to keep vibration below a certain level. That not being the case, like the oil-leak problem, this should be something that ZWO fix for free- I feel very strongly about this! I'm pretty sure that legal bods would also win any argument that claims such a fault would potentially make their cameras not fit for purpose.

I'm also just speculating. Maybe it's more related to image scale rather than a matter of focal length? Sure, with the same camera you will get a lower resolution (well, actually a "better"/higher resolution; less raw numbers) when increasing the focal length. But, if you have for example 0.5''/px with a particular camera and a high focal length ota and facing this issue; would you get the same issue with a lower focal length ota and a different camera (with tiny pixels, and also a vibrating fan) with the same resolution of 0.5''/px? Probably yes? Furthermore, binning the camera on the high focal length ota would mitigate the problem?

Wow!

Hello Cuiv, I always follow your videos with great interest and in relation to this video I wanted to remember my direct experience with these small fans in other sectors which are usually extremely well balanced. It may happen that someone is born badly but it is easier than working for many hours in the end a little dust accumulates on the fan blades which, increasing over time, unbalances it and creates harmful vibrations. Often paste clean the fan with a few cotton swabs and some alcohol to solve the problem.

This is probably the issue with my ASI2600MC C11 setup. The Stars were also elongated in that direction. I thought it was back focus. I will say that in the summer time when my C11 is out more the cooler is working a lot harder (-10) and it seemed no matter what I did the elongated stars wouldn't get better. Thanks for this.

Très bonne video!(comme d’habitude).
Sur ma ZWO 2600 MC il y a des petits caoutchouc rouge entre le ventilateur et le corps de la camera et je n’ai donc pas de vibration…
Peut-être y a t’il des versions différentes?🤔

I replaced the fan on my ASI294 this winter. In my case, the vibrations were obvious. The fan sounded horrible in cold weather.

I love your enthusiasm and presentation style and of course your very helpful content!!

Ah I got the same issue on my RisingCam camera and I exchanged a Noctua fan to solve the vibrating issue.

Issues are still being worked out in 2023. I don't think that this hobby will ever be perfected :)

I have noticed the ZWO fan isn't quite centered in the housing either, I have aquired a new camera from Player One Astronomy called the Artemis-C Pro and have noticed the fan is dead center, and when powered on with fan running I cannot feel a thing. The fan being slightly off center would also cause slight osclation

What about sacrificing a little bit of cooling capability, and take out the fan completely... What if, you no longer cool down to -20C, and instead, go for 0C, so assuming this 20C degree difference would be sufficient for the fact that you take out the cooler, so heat is no longer being dissipated so efficiently... but the difference between 0C and -20C is not that much, especially with the new generation cameras, which already have low noise... in the end, the point is to have good calibration with properly matched light/dark frames, so it should work...
Personally, I wouldn't mind sacrificing some Celsius degrees, and avoid the whole vibration problem, altogether...

Before you take your camera apart, test by simply turning off the cooling. I'm wondering why you see oblong stars,..meaning the vibration had specific orientation. Was it consistent across the frame? I would have expected larger stars but not necessarily oblong from this issue.
I'm also curious why you are only seeing this with long focal length optics. It sounds like the vibration is bring sent to the OTA and that is the issue, not the vibration of the camera sensor itself. In that case these may be something unstable about the OTA, perhaps the hyperstar housing is not tight?

Using lenses we know stabilization needs to be turned off.

I’m running a RC with fl 2800mm, QHY268MM, and OAG/ASI174: no vibration issues. But terrible tracking issues because either no trackable stars or sooo mushy stars that PHD2 was having problems locking to part of the star. So I attached a 1300mm Maksutov and now my tracking is the best it’s ever been. Last two sessions sub-pixel tracking typically 0.5 or less. I’m ecstatic!

I have always been suspect of a cooling fan causing interference with the images. Now that I have some worthy equipment I will be trying this with/without to see how good my setup is. Thanks Cuiv! I've learned a LOT from your videos. (ZWO ASI1600MM Pro)

I've noticed an issue with my ASI2600 MMPR when photographing the sun with exposures ranging from approximately 1 to 3 ms. The manufacturer suggests a makeshift solution which involves adding an additional O-ring. However, I find this to be inadequate because the O-rings don't prevent the mounting screws from continuing to be in contact with the fan body, thus the problem is not avoided.

My impression is that ZWO isn't treating the solution to this problem with the seriousness it deserves, in a similar way to how they handled the oil spots detected on the sensors of the high-end ASIs. This was an issue that wasn't properly addressed until it began to be claimed through public forums. My perception is that ZWO doesn't have an effective customer policy, and only responds to the technical problems of their already sold cameras when public complaints begin to affect them.

Therefore, I believe there's a need to further publicize these issues. If any videos or photos are needed to demonstrate these points, please feel free to request them.

Well I got the anti vidration feet , at first I bought the wrong size so I sent them back and got the SAV3 . went to install them and the dont fit. I could not get the feet into the fan. I took some struggle to get the through the holes but I could not get them any farther up. I did not want to tear them or mess up the fan. I am using the zwo 294 so maybe the holes are smaller ???

It's probably the fan indeed, but thinking about it, as a wild guess, could it be possible that the equatorial mount is experiencing low current? These newer dedicated cameras consume a lot of power to cool the sensor, and perhaps the R.A. motor struggles more to perform tracking and the necessary autoguiding corrections when active cooling is enabled, "drawing" power from the source. Of course, this probably only applies in cases where the equatorial mount and the camera share the same power source. Anyway, this could explain why the stars appear more oval-shaped.

That almost sounds like the sensor is becoming underpowered when the cooler is turned on. May just need more power to give adequate amperage to both the sensor and the cooler at the same time.

Another thing to afraid for astrophotography 😱

Very informative. I couldn't test, I don't have enough focal length.
I love your videos and the flow.
Hello from France

@CuivTheLazyGeek So even if the fan has a magnetic air-bearing these vibrations are still there? I'll have to revise my Dedicated Astro Cam Selection Spreadsheet. Curious: could N.I.N.A. be set up to shut off the fan during acquisition and on in betwee---nevermind.

Had experienced the same issue with my 1000mm newt. Thought it was kind of focus or something. But this makes sense to me and I will probably test this weekend.

Late last summer, my ASI294MC Pro fan was noisy and vibrating badly. I thought bearing failure? No, I took it apart and removed the moth parts, then it ran like a champ!

I'm start sweating.

Holy crap... I was using my C9.25 @ f10 (2350mm) for the very first time a few months ago. (I've been imaging for 4+ years). I was using the 533mcP. I was getting perfect oval stars. I had only used that camera at f2.2 (525mm)

I could not figure out what the heck was going on. I thought I had an optics problem due to a previous incident(another story, Isn't astro fun???). I was playing with tilt and everything I could think of. I gave up at 3am... I think this is it.

I think you are right, it isnt just ZWO... I thought when I first saw these cameras tht a fan on the body could cause problems... but I was thinking more when they start to break down.

I didn’t know cooled cams had problems ( I uncooled right now) first I’ve heard. What an interesting video. I’ll stick to uncooled. I have the asi585mc is it’s a great middle ground.

it should be possible to balance the impeller blade if its balanced then the need for vibration suppression wouldn't be necessary. This was an issue for cameras on drones as when the refresh rate came close to the propeller vibrations then problems occurred. Balance first would be better. Anti vibration mounts for drone cameras and flight controllers would work in the camera internally.

Great video! Literally just had to replace my fan in my 294mm in the middle of the night. Had a normal imaging run last night, but when I started tonight I had really bad star trailing. I had already remounted this particular fan on the elastomers two years ago when I fixed its brother the 294mc. Took it apart and didn't see anything wrong with it, but was certainly out of balance based on images where I had the cooler on / off. Luckily I had an extra fan laying around so was able to salvage a rare clear evening.

Wow! I never thought of that. Thank you for pointing this out I use a C14Edge+ZWO ASI2600MC pro and at 4000mm fl I had oblong stars. I had no issues with the Hyperstar. I tried removing my guidescope and using an off-axis guider with same result, oblong stars. This happend with good seeing and near perfect guiding. I was using a CGE Pro mount. I tried my Skywatcher EQ8RH-Pro with crazy accurate encoders and still same result. Well I just ordered a set of these anti-vibration pads. This makes a lot of sense as it wasn't happening with my ZWO 224 (non-cooled camera). I just hadn't clued into it. I'm most certain this is the issue. Thank you.

I just bought the 2600mc pro, didn't tried yet, 😭😭

Hmm, that might be my problem, I only get them when I am using my newt.. even though my guiding is great.. will test it out next time..

Such as an interesting video. That’s why i only have planetary cams.

Why did you get rid of the Celestron EdgeHd 8, I was looking at getting that one.

When did ToupTek started shipping out the newer version with the silicon feet? How can one tell before purchase?

Spent 3 months with asi2600mc pro chasing down oblong stars with my Celestron 8 SCT. guiding, collimation, tilt, backfocus, etc. nothing worked.
Gave up and bought a Celestron 9.25 Edge HD. All above looked good except still I had oblong stars.
Tried exposures of 1,3,5,10,30,60,120, etc. same oblong stars that all looked the same.
If it was guiding, they would be longer as exposure time increased.

Turned off fan. Pinpoint stars at all exposures even at 5 minutes.

Turned on cooler, oblong stars resumed.
Turned off, pinpoint stars.

So i decided to try my asi533mc pro. Same issues.

On - oblong
Off - pinpoint.

Talked with ZWO. they said certain scopes at longer focal length have a natural resonance frequency that induces vibration noise.

8 Edge hd was notorious.

Apparently it is not just that scope.

Now I own a 9.25 edge hd. Darn! Sorry, but I am not returning it.

So is this common at high focal lengths :/

As soon as you said oblong stars at high focal length I immediately thought "fan vibration!".

Thanks for the video. I love watching your videos because you always look at things very analytically and show great attention to details. You think like me! One aspect you didn’t mention and that I don’t see mentioned in the comments after a quick scan is that if you are using a ZWO camera, there is a good chance you are using an ASIAir as well. Guess what. These have fans in them too and are often attached to the telescope or mount. So that’s another thing to consider. Another is the power source. If you use a portable power box like I do, it also has a fan in it. Even if it’s sitting on the ground under the mount it can cause vibrations.

Some solutions I’ve seen suggested by others are having a separate tripod with the ASIAir attached. I personally haven’t tried this because I can’t imagine the cable management difficulties being worth it. I noticed a little improvement when I put a thin piece of rubber between the ASIAir and the mount. The power box vibrations, which I first discovered while going through a focusing routine and noticing the guiding get jolted when the fan kicks in, can be cured quite easily. I folded up a soft blanket and put the power box on top of it. Strangely enough, now I notice that when the fan kicks in I actually get better guiding! I believe it’s some sort of frequency resonance where vibrations sort of cancel each other out. And one last thing is to purposely balance the setup East heavy. As you know, this is good practice anyway for smoother worm gear movements but it has the side effect of absorbing vibrations through tension. A perfectly balanced setup will be more susceptible to vibrations because it can move either direction quite easily while the East heavy balance won’t allow for small vibrations to have enough force to cause these little vibratory movements.

Hope that helps both you and anyone else reading this!

Now there is a sale of ZWO cameras in the US for Black Friday I’m tempted to take advantage and buy my first cooled camera and I starting reading about fan vibration. I’m beginning to feel like an involuntary beta tester for ZWO. Having issues with my new ASIAir Plus because of the focal length of my C8 and the small sensor of the ASI585MC. If I buy a cooled camera will I get an imbalanced fan? Seems like all the issues with ZWO equipment are because of higher focal length scopes like my C8. So far if seen ASI533, ASI294, ASI294 and ASI2600 cameras mentioned in my research. I bet if you hook anyone of these cameras to power and hold the camera you’ll feel vibration., but like you said the shorter focal length equipment doesn’t seem affected.

Cuiv have you done or can you do a video on ampglow?

What about running the fan at half speed?

Thanks for affirming this fan problem!!! I have struggled all summer with the same fan issue with my ASI533MCpro....thinking the problem was with the mount tracking, battery. etc.
My fanon-fanoff Images were exactly as the images in your video!!