Was saving money a mistake? (Epoxy vs Vinylester) | Step 403

Vinyl ester is used to build airplanes like Glasair (very fast airplane) and is fuel safe. The strength of the fiberglass system is in the glass not the resin; the resin just holds the glass in the proper orientation and supports the glass in compression. Adhesion to a surface may be difference; but wood is very porous so no issue with adhesion. I would use ester.

Are you just making up bull** prices in the thumbnail or is that really the cost per bucket there? In my country (South Africa) I can get a 20 liter drum of Vinylester Laminating resin and catalyst/hardener (4838BT) for US$ 294.00 and I can get a 20 liter drum of Laminating Epoxy (CR122) with catalyst/hardener for US$633.00, or 20 liters of SD7160 UV Stable Epoxy resin and slow hardener for $540.00, and if I buy more than 1 drum at a time, they will come bring it to my front door for free, otherwise its $5 delivery fee and if I buy it in 44 gallon drums (205 liters) then its about 20% cheaper per liter, and they will deliver it for free.

The issue between vinyl ester vs epoxy, is that, when vinyl ester is curing, it out-gasses, which leaves microscopic channels that radiate out to the surface, which is kinda how blisters happen, (osmosis).
Epoxy cross links, and out gassing is much less than vinyl ester, so “channeling” is vastly reduced, blistering from osmosis, is practically nil. Strength is very similar to each other. ( which is why I recommend using epoxy when the keel is dropped/re-bedded). Your keel will always be submerged/ highly stressed…(your friendly neighborhood keel bolt dude)…Mike

In the early 1990s I converted a 48' power boat for commercial fishing and what I did to my bulkheads was where the tanning to the hull I drilled 1/2" holes about 3" apart and 3" from the hull then filled the holes with vinylester resin mixed with millfiber. Also pre saturate the plywood bulkhead with two coats of thinned vinylester resin before tabbing with two layers of 1708 glass. The 1/2" resin mixed milled fiber plugs gave extra reenforced bonding to the plywood on both sides. Hope this helps

Dan & Kika, I admire your experimentation to “prove all things” rather than relying on the tribal knowledge of hearsay. 👍. 😎

When are the weak links of vinyl Esther is usually the hardener be careful you always use fresh hardener I try not to buy too much enough for one season never let it get cold another thing I like to do with vinyl ester make kind of a party without hardener kitty litter in cabazon and leave it premixed so you can use it all the time I like using a half a gallon mixed up at a time just remember you still need to put Ardmore in before you use it

I think your in video sponsored ads are getting worse. 😂 Or maybe it's just the things you are trying to sell that are getting worse. 😂

When gluing wood together you should thin the vynalester 10% first coat

Hi, qualunque resina userete, dopo averla stesa sul mat di vetroresina e prima di usare il pel ply passate un soffiatore di aria molto calda per eliminare le bolle di aria ( tecnica usata per i tavoli di legno e resina dai falegnami) buon vento !

case closed if you ask me

Vinylester Resins have excellent resistance to osmosis and corrosion due to their molecular chains and are often the number one choice for protective skins that will be prone to water, chemicals or high temperatures.

Did you sand the epoxy before lamination?

One of the reasons epoxy is preferred in certain areas is that it is 100% solids.👴👌
This makes epoxy 100% vapor tight, no solvent escapes (styrene, which inevitably leaves micro channels).

The use of barrier coat is an example of this. Barrier coat is always epoxy (as far as I know). Let me know if it isn't.👴🤷‍♂

I could have saved you a lot of time, I have known for decades that the glue is stronger than what you are gluing to. We tried almost the same “experiment” when I was in High School and the glue always won.

I’m curious if “vinalester” is what they tried for a short span that was supposedly “fireproof” and resulted in blistering below the waterline? I can’t imagine it causing an issue inside the boat and, quite frankly, regular wood glue would probably have done the same job. Epoxy is just a glue that gives you “working” time because regular glue pretty much starts bonding immediately and wouldn’t really saturate fiberglass weaving like epoxy does. I would have done anything to have saved $10,000,but just not so much on the outside of the boat, epoxy has decades of trial time. I wouldn’t have any hesitation using it for stuff above the waterline and/or inside the boat. There is nothing in the “plus” column to experimenting on the outside particularly below the waterline.

What brand sanding machine are you using? The one that is using the sandpaper rolls?

Jones Melissa Taylor Frank Miller Edward

Cleaning and roughing the surface is the most important thing here

this video sponsorship and all is what two inteligent, asertive and strongminded but uneducated persons sound like after you feed them a sales pitch

Epoxy is way cheaper in the US. IDK about vinyl ester.

Vinylester is nasty stuff....if you use it use a fresh air respirator...

Did you stop coffee because grouchy?

❤❤❤

Vinylester is porous. Epoxy is not.

Tip when using vinyl ester for tabbing to bulkheads is to do an initial coating of 50 / 50 vinyl ester and styrene monomer, this wild give better penetration of the resin into timber.

😊😊😊

The plywood experiment make me think that if you had small holes going throw were the resin would have seep into it would be much much stronger.
That could be a good way to make strong bulkhead instead of layering fiberglass, filleting, etc, get the resin into the wood more to create a better bond of the two materials

Totally cool video.. our boat like most OLD boats was built of polyester resin.. so my argument has always been what advantage is using epoxy for repair work? Now in the modification of a rudder to fit our boat.. the shaft had to come out to be machined.. The rudder was made from polyester and incredibly well engineered and built.. but we used epoxy and glass to set the rudder post back into the rudder after the machine work was completed.. The REASON was that it cured more slowly and we vacuum bagged the glass work in to eliminate any voids... Could we have vacuum bagged polyester? Maybe but the fast cure time would definitely have been an issue and in this case leaving it 24 hours under vacuum ... worked.. and after two seasons of use of that rudder it worked really REALLY well.. I am NOT saying its stronger but I am saying in this case the clamp pressure of vacuum bagging was better served by the slow cure of the epoxy resin and the bond we have .. exceeds the load the rudder can apply..

You might find that good vinyl ester is stronger than ambient temperature cure epoxy but weaker than elevated temperature cure epoxy.

You’ll probably find though that the vinyl ester is unmatched in terms of chemical resistance. It is the one that is used industrially to manufacture composite chemical tanks.

Either way you go, you’re comparing two incredibly strong glues with pretty close specs.

Now compare it with polyester resin and laugh and laugh…

I use a thiner and paint a thin coat into the wood to prepare the work.
Carnivore menu for your best health and to save money. Stop eating junk food and plants to get healthy. Cancer feeds on sugar and carbohydrates so stop it. Your gut is not designed to process plants and this is why you sit on the can all morning. Watch Doctor Ken Berry and Doctor Shawn Baker.

Haha!! You guys don’t disappoint. “What’s this…? Screws!!”

Used vinyl ester for resurfacing the bottom. Vinylester is harder

Love the tests!

Working with composites and boats for 7years now I can only tell you this:
All I hear about vinyl ester is companies try it for a while and then quit.

Well, I’ve been using vinylester on old polyester structures. Most old fiberglass boat hulls are just plain junky polyester resin. Some higher quality boats from the eighties onward when osmotic damage started to become thing, were given an outer barrier skin of vinylester. I suppose there are a few boats ought here that were solid vinylester. Lucky you if you have one.

I can tell you that for repairs on old production boats, vinylester and NOT polyester crappy so called “boatyard resin”, is the way to go. Vinylester has better wet out and a slower more predictable kick off. It’s also stronger and has better adhesion.
I did a lot of blister repairs using vinylester. As good as epoxy I feel, for that task, but still should use an epoxy barrier coat over it.

For wood, I remain convinced that epoxy is better. It penetrates into the grain. You can get away with using vinylester or probably even boatyard resin for bonding bulkheads since the bonding area is pretty large. (Four inch tabbing hull and bulkhead)
If money was less of a concern or the boat was smaller id use epoxy. I prefer West. Go ahead and hate on me. Ive used west to tab in bulkheads on various smaller boats. For gluing wooden things together, if they are important things, it’s epoxy period. Especially if it’s going to get wet.
Best of luck on your project!

Vynal ester is chemicaly similar to epoxy is has minor differences it is in affect a denatured epoxy

Cured Epoxy begins to soften as the heat rises , thin non cored laminates soften and lose there stiffness . i feel its very over rated , check transition temperature on epoxy and your polyester resins also heat test .

Your results are what I would have expected from my testing. The choice in my opinion comes down more to how you want to work the material. Vinylester and polyester have the advantage of setting up fast and allowing you to work in a continuous manner building up reinforcement layers as you go along. They also dissolve the binder in 1708 and chopped strand matting and they will chemically bond to a gel coating thats applied over them. Epoxy cures slowly and its kinda best painted afterward.

I'm starting a full interior refit in 2 months and I'm SOOO GLAD I found this! Thank you for giving me the confidence to spend 1/3 of the money!! 😁

Isophthalic would be best when doing repairs… can you get that over there?

A hint on removing the keel bolts....or ANY bolts and nuts and screws for that matter. TIGHTEN them first! Not a bunch, you just want to get it to move. That breaks is free from corrosion. If you straight away try and unfasten you run the risk of stripping the shoulders off the nut or bolt head. THEN what do you do? Grinder time. But it you strip the shoulder when trying to tighten then you still have the working shoulders for unfastening and time to sit and think about how to go about the task from there.

You should title this Magic Mind ad rather than boat blog

VE is better…

SHAME ON YALL!🤪🤣😂…I swore that I would not subscribe to another channel… Here I go absolutely new subscriber. Great cross-section of boat related stories. I loved the mast removal journey video. I’m 65 and intend to do the intercoastal waterway within this calendar year…. procrastinators calendar that is🤣. You guys are absolutely an adorable couple that work well together. A joy to watch. I’m learning a lot thank you. Live Every Day🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸👮‍♀️

In aviation, circa '99, when our repairs were tested, the inspector would look for approximately 80% or greater transfer of wood. All of your test pieces would not only have passed, you would have gotten an A+ for your analysis/explanation. Excellent work you two, I can't always keep up but when I get the chance I like to binge watch. I can't wait to see what you do after this project because we all know your restless minds need the stimulation. Stay safe, be well!

I think you mentioned that you waited a couple of days for the test samples to cure. That might be ok for the vinylester, but epoxy takes at least a week to reach full strength. So, the epoxy sample was only at a fraction of its strength when you did the test.

This message was sent to me yesterday from the owner / builder of one America's most respected boat companies, a company that has built very strong boats for decades... He says "For that re-tabbing, use either vinylester or epoxy. Polyester resins don’t have enough secondary bond strength."

Kind of late in the game to be worrying about this isn’t it!!!