Part 1 I How Grid Storage Duration is Assessed and Why it Matters

Einsteinian advice is to make an explanation simple, but not too simple, so we understand Relativistic Physics now don't we?

Euler's pure-math e-Pi-i elaboration by symbolic design is as simple a picture as possible to make of making Relativistic => relative-timing ratio-rates Perspective time-timing narrative by default, explanation.., otherwise you just look at Jordan's Limiting Factor and understand what you can by flash-fractal In-form-ation substantiation holography relative-timing reciprocation-recirculation potential positioning integration re-cognition, somewhat probabilisticly.

Now that's an excellent Video lesson in duration timing modulation cause-effect everyone needs to know how to use when investing their own time and money.

THX JORDAN 🤗 off to good start

Solid video informative and entertaining.

This is FANTASTIC information for investors! This is a necessary framework for thinking about how new grid storage technologies will fit into the market.

I do not understand this. Instead of watching a movie. I again have to watch your channel. 🤣

Thank you, Jordan for so much thoughtful work you put out.
I ran across some videos of Simon Michaux, whose main theory is that the current approach to green energy requires too much minerals that the earth simply doesn’t provide, to the extent of our knowledge. I wonder if you have looked into his analysis and what you think. There are a lot of ideas or talks that challenge the mainstream approaches to sustainability, many of them are simply stupid, but I wouldn’t say that about Michaux, at least without hearing other professionals opinions, like yourself. Thank you!

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You should have put a warning on the logorithmic scales :)

Something went wrong with the audio. Is this "AI" denoising at work?

Some of the best info on YT!

The signal-to-noise ratio in your videos is absolutely insane, thanks Jordan for yet another banger

When adding storage to a grid, cost per each kwhr time shifted is the key parameter. (Capital Cost) / (lifetime kwhr cycles) = cost/kwhr. For example . If your battery costs $100/kwhr and you cycle it daily over an assumed 10 yr lifetime or ~3000 times, each stored kwhr costs $0.03 (excluding interest costs, charging costs, round-trip efficiency)). If one assumes a 5% interest cost ($5/300=~$0.014) one must add ~$0.044 to the cost of the charging kwhr then divide by the round trip efficiency to determine the cost of the time shifted kwhr.

It gets even worse when you look at system cost as your actual goal is to provide a certain amount of kWh from storage to all end users.
If using a low efficiency storage method (like flow batteries) means you need more excess power from your primary sources to satisfy this desired utility.
I.e. you have to build more solar and wind farms and also have a beefier grid to transmit this increased amount of power.
So a storage method that might look cheap on paper (like flow batteries and, particularly, hydrogen) is actually very expensive when looking at your entire energy system and taking their knock-on effects into account.

Wow! I understand something I didn't understand before. Professional and well done. Thank You!

Great Information as always @thelimitingfactor. We as a world population will have to transition to grid storage, my question is, timeline, segmentation of most growth(long/interday), , what are our bottlenecks here? Adoption has been relatively slow, when will the inflection point be + - couple years?

Glad you're going for sponsors, more $ = more content and I do love your subject matter.

Response time is also a factor.

Great video Jordan. You're an absolute beast

I understand that using 5 2hr units simultaneously would be cost inefficient. But couldn't you just use them one after the other so each of them only operates for 2hr at a time?

Thanks!

Quality quality quality

I'm always amazed at the things i learn here ❤❤

While I understand that you are simplifying in order to provide educational material, you left out the most critical "limiting factor:" The COST PER UNIT CYCLE of the energy storage system, such as cost per kWhr CYCLE. This cycle cost is very closely tied to the round trip efficiency, which is very low for hydrogen (around 16% in real world conditions), and very high (90%+) for lithium batteries, with pumped hydro a close second (80%).

The upfront cost for both the power and energy in a storage system must be spread out over the expected cycle life in order to provide useful information for overall cost for the power and energy. A cheaper upfront cost for a low cycle system can mean much higher costs per kWhr than a system that costs double, but has twice the number of cycles, or more. This is because you also need to factor in the downtime and labor of replacing equipment more frequently.

Jordan, thanks for the video.

One challenge I’m curious if you’re going to address is the problem with renewables.

Renewables are highly variable, down to the millisecond in terms of their effect on the grid. Because the wind blowing can be non-uniform, and the cloud cover the same, it’s hard to predict at scale where an ISO operator for example should send power in a dynamic way. Here in CA lacking millisecond/second response grid scale storage (supercapicitors?) we have to install an equivalent amount of natural gas oeaker plants for every megawatt of solar or wind deployed. Because oeaker plants are cheap from a capex perspective but expensive on opex, the net result is as solar is deployed energy gets dirtier and more expensive. I’ve seen here in ca and read about Germany that our cost of energy is growing much faster than inflation or demand. Installing more solar/wind makes the problem worse not better, and I’m concerned with durations of 2-4hrs that grid scale battery storage is not going to be an effective solution.

Long story short, I hope one of the videos in this series gets into this aspect of the economics.

Sure solar/wind + grid scale storage is cheaper on paper, but in my backyard I’ve seen power costs 4x in 2 decades.

That’s totally unsustainable.

And while I have you. Elon keeps saying we’re going to run out of power in a couple years. I agree with him. Current ev fleet is 1% if it continues to grow at 50% cagr then it will hit 3.5% very soon. At 3.5% we don’t have the power infrastructure to take the increased demand of EVs because that power is currently delivered via oil, which is a separate system. So we’ll have power “stock outs” do to changing mix demand. Not unlike toilet paper shortages as consumption changed from a mix of commercial and tesidential to primarily residential during covid, leaving an entire supply chain out.

Tbh understanding the local micro economics of this so I can look on caliso and predict when my county will lose power would be most welcome.

Thx, -M

As an ex-grid engineer I can say this was a very good explanation, I could have never thought of this angle. For the purpose of the battery, is it fair to say a "2h duration" can also be called a 0.5C max discharge, while a "4h duration" could be called 0.25C? For sure grid storage jargon may be more akin to "duration" rather than "C-rating", but I need to tie the two worlds somehow.

In Northern climates, interseasonal storage is going to be a huge issue in the future (winter = no sun, high energy demand), it would be nice to see ultra-long discharge technologies included in such an analysis, in particular, where does hydrogen fit into the interseasonal storage picture.

can you please do deep dive on EOSE?

it gets complex when you looks at systems like Stiegsdal system with lower round trip efficiense (40%) but also low capex.

Please do an update video on why TSLA has been unable to produce the 500 miles on the cybertruck that they'd hoped for?!

The fact that you got another expert to review your video shows your level to detail and care, that's why people like you bud!🙌

As usual excellent video Jordan, complex subject that’s broken down with your usual aplomb!

Oh, my god, 18 minutes just passed by?! It feels like I could listen to these types of videos hours on end.

ty

Thanks! I really appreciate these deep dives that get into the weeds of how these things work.

energy density pumped hydro 1 Wh/m3 ???

Interesting, as usual, Jordan. I'm sure I don't entirely understand what you mean by "duration" and what it means to my home power ideas.

For example, I'm running some common use tests with a new battery. The 'storage life' of my tiny recreational LiFePO4 battery seems to be about a week. I charged it up, disconnected it from everything, and then watched the electricity stored in it decay to zero over the next seven days. What's the term of reference for that period of time on that battery? As far as I can tell, there is no draw, the battery just won't retain electricity for significant time periods. Basically, it's an electricity bucket. I can fill it up, carry it somewhere the same day, use it all, then go home and repeat the cycle tomorrow.

How does this match other folks' experience? Are these LiFePO4 batteries specifically intended to be charged and discharged daily?

If so, what would you recommend I look at for a battery that keeps most of its charge intact for a period of a month or more? Is there such a chemistry?

Building my own mini-reservoir and mini-turbogenerator is . . . not entirely out of the question. Living in western Washington as I do, collecting LOTS of rain in winter is a viable option. In my case, a few wind turbine designs and some solar panels will probably come first.

Loved this, very helpful and interesting.

So frustrating that the algorythm never notifies me of your videos even tho im subscribed.

Looking forward to part 2

Just can’t seem to access that free pdf version. Went to your link and that works but no where to download a pdf. Had an ebook button but my ebook provider, Apple, can’t find it. Is there somewhere else it is downloadable?

Also energy efficiency is important. Hydrogen about 50%, pumped hydro 75%; batteries >90%

Great video ! I'm an energy storage engineer in China who recently switched job to market/stock analysis focusing on the same industry. Energy storage is an extremely hot topic in Chinese market and there are a lot happening in recent years. Currently there are debates on which techonology is the most suitbable for long duration energy storage (LDES). The candidates in the industry are lithium iron, lead acid, flow battery, and gravity energy storage. There are dozens of start-ups betting on each technology and the market is going crazy. Looking forward to your follow-up videos on this topic and your opion on the most suitable technology for LDES.

Super informative video please include how the duck curve is affected by storage in the future videos and the economics associated with it

I love your graphics, and how you can make a very complicated system easy to understand! I was always thinking that pumped hydroelectric power is the only way to store over 500 MWh of power for a long duration. Yet the Tesla power packs seem to be bringing down that overall cost now.

Hi Jordan, what happened with the sequels to this (great) video?

Does pumped hydro include the cost of building a water tank? If not, then I assume pumped hydro is only viable in some areas, and would be prohibitively expensive elsewhere? Presumably its regional nature would also have the added cost of beefing up the grid between areas of supply and demand?

The "C" value used for e.g. LFP batteries is actually power/energy, so a lower C value means the battery is typically less expensive for a given amount of energy storage. Furthermore charging a battery at 0.5C max may result in a longer battery life than if used at 1C max, so there may be tradeoffs there.
Is there any reason why you (or industry) use energy/power (e.g. 1/C or minimum hours) instead of power/energy? Bigger numbers sound good, but they really mean the system is not good in the power delivery department.

Please create a playlist or cross reference videos

Thanks for sharing your thoughts, ideas and videos. Pretty good explanation of some of the hidden costs that go into power production. Looking forward to seeing more of your videos to see what other information you have to share. Never heard of the 10 to 1 ratio before as an operator but seems about right. Used to operate a 1200MW pump/storage and our reservoir was 12,000 MWH’s. An interesting subject to cover might be Demonstrated Maximum Net Capacity testing. Always an interesting exercise to perform, especially when the units get into the larger capacities. Some of the obstacles include is there room on the grid to accommodate the test. In North America a capacity test is for 4 hours. How fast can you start up a 1200MW generator. Actual vs Practical. In the plant I was familiar with the actual was less than 4 min. The fastest practical when not in an emergency situation was about an hour. Preferred was 2 hours to start and 2 hours to shut down. And capacity testing is always for 4 hours at full capacity in between the start and stop.