First vs. Third Person

i would one day like to see the list of games you've played and your quick comments on them

Timothy, I am looking forward to your projection video, thank you.

While I agree the game setting and things should choose the camera type, I inverted the process because I can get quite ill with some first-person. I've purchased games I've wanted to play but had to stop because of it. It can even be worse when I see a streamer playing a game in first person.

The game I'm working on is third/first based on the situation, I'm hoping I can find settings that don't trigger me.

In Skyrim I preferred the first person view, but now recently playing Avowed I preferred the third person view.
I guess I prefer the third person but only when it’s done well?
Or perhaps I just felt that first person wasn’t done well enough for my liking in Avowed?

Anyway, as a player I don’t seem to have a strong preference either way as long as it is well done.

Hey Tim. What I recently watched a video on the "deprofessionalization" of games. I recently watched a video made by "Legendary Drops" on this topic titled "Indie games are the enemy now" and I was curious to know your thoughts about it. Briefly put, it may be considered as "the overperformance of older titles, free to play live service games, as well as solo and small team developers". As many of us know, there seems to be a growing divide between the AAA game industry and consumers (whether for good or bad reasons). Considering many smaller studios and solo developers have been releasing increasingly popular games as of late I wanted to hear what you thought about this, since you have worked at least from what I understand on many different areas of this spectrum (at least in AAA and "AA" I suppose). To be clear, my question is not "what do you think about how indie games are better than AAA games", I hope it doesn't come off that way. Thanks!

I've heard it said that first-person perspective works best for games focused around what the player is looking at (e.g. first-person shooters) while third-person perspective works best if the focus is on the player's surroundings (e.g. platformers and beat-em-ups). And it makes sense to me, since I've always had trouble with first-person platforming and melee, and can never fully get my head around third-person aiming.

This is building on the "immersion" but an advantage I see to First Person is a sense of embodiment. Non-RPG example but SOMA is a game where inhabiting a specific body, in specific circumstance, is really key to what the game is going for in terms of narrative, theme and atmosphere. It allows you to connect to that perspective and character more. I also thought it was really strong in Cyberpunk 2077, which had a tonne to add to the feeling of having a body, looking down and seeing yourself or seeing your arms while sitting. Even just seeing the city at the scale a human would see the city, rather than some more elevated angle, added to those environments.

I really hope CD Projekt Red doesn't give-in mainstream demand, I want them continue making their next cyberpunk game in FPS exclusive.

First person is usually barf city for me. Awful feeling and I think I have tried every 'solution' out there. It used to be worse than it is now and I'm guessing that's to do with improvements in graphics and field of view and so on.

I am going to be very interested in your video about projection types.

Also, I don't have problems playing video games for hours. Mind you, I trained as a pianist. My fingers are very hardy

My take on first vs third is quite straightforward: first person is for shooters and stealth games (edit: horror is technically stealth, right?). Third is for everything else.

...though I do enjoy a good first person driving game, but those are incredibly rare.

ARK ANGEL

What games were you playing when your sprained your finger.. I think many of us are curious

Third person for me means more empathy with the character and weirdly enough, more immersion, because I see I have a body and even though I can't feel it, I see what happens to that body. One of the most amazing gaming experiences in the 90s was seeing the character trip on a rock in Ecstatica. Just a scripted animation event but it meant so much.

Tim should do a small game jam

So many games have multiple players, if you have a game that is first person, wouldn't you need the animations for everything anyway in case you are being watched?

I prefer first person for everything except when I'm driving vehicles, in which case I prefer third person as that lets me see the area surrounding the vehicle as well.

I really like when developers go all out with a first person camera. Like when they take the time to make animations for a lot of things and when they show the body/legs/feet if you look down. Like Cyberpunk or Kingdom Come: Deliverance

I disagree on designing a game and deciding 1st or 3rd person from the game's design. That is a valid approach, but just as valid is choosing a perspective and designing a game around that perspective

One thing that was briefly mentioned, but not really examined is the way a tight over-the-shoulder viewpoint can really split the difference. You get the immersion and intuitive gunplay of first-person, but most of the other advantages of 3rd person.

take that doctor!

I like both

Yeah, I play both games, but generally prefer third, because I like being able to see my character and their place in the world. First person tends to leave me with a narrower perspective, so I lack a full understanding of what's around me. 3D Audio can help with this, as could VR, since you can look around. First person is "harder" than "real life" because in real life I can move my head around more easily and my body can move separately, and peripheral vision tends to work more smoothly, so I just have way more "awareness" than in most first person games. Not to mention that I can feel myself bumping into things so I know how I'm fitting into the room that I'm in.

One observation I've made is that the cost of animations for 1st vs 3rd p-view is that it is also case by case. Some 3rd person games share animations between their human npcs and the player. Examples - 3d Fallout, Gears of War, elder scrolls. Games that do not do this I think are - Assassin's creed, Witcher, Uncharted, Metal gear solid. I've not played the latter games list but have seen enough gameplay that i'm fairly certain npc's are not doing the same things as the player. One commonality between the latter list is that all Player characters are either enhanced humans or possess special training, so they have capabilities (usually mobility or attack patterns) that the npcs do not.

I also wouldn't get too caught up on which view is more immersive. Some games really are more fun as 3rd or 1st person. I also wouldn't discount including 3rd person in a primarily 1st person game if it can have it's virtues. Take Fallout 3 & New vegas for example, I'd argue that 3rd person is mostly objectively worse than 1st person but I think that it is very good to have been included. Personally I switch between the two views on the fly whenever I feel. Their are people who prefer the 3rd person over 1st. Many other games from before and contemporary to 3d Fallout had much more polished and better 3rd person but it shouldn't be a reason to not have included it.

Hi Tim I was wondering if you had any thoughts on companies patenting game mechanics? The Nemesis system being patented and now the lawsuit against Pal World developer pocket pair has me wondering about the future of games if more and more mechanics become patented.

Hello Tim, amazing channel. I’ve been doing research on game design with the aim of gamifying a voice-interactive journaling app that I’m building for iPhone. I watched one of your videos on game loops, and I guess I’m trying to figure out how make creating journal entries fun or constructive for the user rather than laborious.

One of the big problems in clinical psychology is the CBT workbooks that therapists give their patients to complete are very boring, so the patient usually quits their treatment plans within 2 months, and the therapist becomes jaded or changes careers. Churn is 30% the field of therapy, so one out of every three therapists will quit this year. If I can make workbooks more enjoyable, then more clinical psychologists will stay in the field…

Any advice on making tasks fun? Anything you think I should steal from Duolingo and how they teach new languages?

Thanks so much.

Great discussion for the topic, and sorry to hear about your finger but that is a good problem to have 😅 I hope you get a chance to try Expedition 33 if you haven’t yet, I know it isn’t the type of RPG game you prefer but I imagine the creativity and flavor of the game would appeal greatly to you.

My favorite in most games is first person with a player model, I love looking down and seeing my legs and outfit, that opening a door has my character reach out and grab the handle, or using a healing item has them drink it or stab in the needle. it's a lot of animation work so understand why most games don't do it, but it's my favorite mod for the 3D fallouts.

Great advice, Tim. I was struggling with choosing between 3rd and 1st person for a demo I was working on. Didn’t even think the same design stuff that shapes the rest of the game could also guide that choice.

Video games broke Tim! How dare they...

Tim you are a true to heart gamer. Give give up, never surrender with your gameplay!

Here's hoping your finger does get better soon enough.

I’m a big fan of games that let you do both. I usually stick to first person for combat and third person for exploration

I'm all for good fashion and cool looking moves so I'm heavily biased towards third person views.

It also doesn't break immersion much, I like to roleplay something I can't be IRL rather than isekai myself into a game so paradoxically first person can be fourth wall breaking at times.

To me Dragon's Dogma 2 cardinal sin among its many faux-pas was to (over)simplify the armours and I've skipped some otherwise good games because the character(s), animations or artistic direction were not appealing. Despite having bad reflexes I passed on many tactics games because of the low-fantasy generic medieval or World War settings, and I've enjoyed many versus fighting games because the characters are so stylish and well animated.

There is also a new way of doing things. Having third person character, where the camera is in the eyes. Basically you can see your legs animated if you look down. I am doing this in my UE game project. I have animated body, but the camera is in the eyes, on top of that the upper body is overridden by VR to maximize immersion. Doing it this way, it is also possible to move the camera back in the middle of the game, for example in a place, where character is climbing the wall, which you can do from "VR 3rd person perspective". This concept is used in the game "Hitman" VR already.

Tim, have you seen fallout 2 1st person conversion? It’s out there on the Internet as a prealpha video footage, and it kinda works as a quirky 1st person.

Man this guy is so cool, such an interesting and brilliant person in our generation! Thank you for doing what you do Tim, I always love your videos!

I'd disagree with your example where first person shines being stealth. Like, Splinter Cell is the best stealth game I've played for a stealth game where being able to see around you, see how the shadows and light hit your character or not, in addition to the hidden meter, played a huge role in getting immersed into the whole game. On the not-stealth, but it's also stealth, Amnesia the dark descent comes to mind for a good first person stealth game. But when you say stealth game, talk about footsteps and all that, splinter cell is what comes to mind as the stand-out for me.

I like before watch cos of the title

Great video, love it

There are category of people like me that feel not immersed but engaged only in 3rd person, and first person games are just not for me, no matter the quality, I mostly don’t care about the world or the story or the gameplay if I can’t see my character

You mentioned that in group games the battle isn't over if your main character drops. There's a particular strain of JRPGs when if a party member falls down you can revive but if the main goes down you lose. I understand its origins but man is it frustrating and feels very anachronistic. The recent Like a Dragon games do it and if the RNG is against you and all the enemies attack your character it makes you want to scream.

I normally take you as a fairly professional and straightforward guy, so when you said “shut up!” I laughed out loud

I used to be a real jerk to some friends who couldn't do first-person games, thinking the "it makes me sick" thing was just an excuse. And then I tried VR for the first time, and ended up hunched over a toilet. We all have our human limitations.

Have you heard of or seen "second person" gaming? There are some obscure (and debatable) examples of it. One can be found in The Last of Us Part II. In one brief moment, you are playing a character (Ellie) who is hitting another person with a melee weapon. You press a button, and Ellie strikes a blow. But Ellie is looking at the camera, and the player (you) has the POV of the person she is hitting. That means Ellie is hitting "you." And yet, you, the player, are controlling Ellie, and your POV is that of the "second person" in this scenario. Would you agree that this is the definition of second-person gaming?

love the "shut up" Mr. Cain 😭😭

12hours of gaming... I should probably fit that in, haven't dine a 12 hours gaming stint in a while.